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There’s a lot of emotion, anger and fear floating around the Villasphere at the moment so I’m going to tread carefully here. I’m not looking to make any particular point, but I do want to correct one or two claims I’m seeing which are factually inaccurate.
Facts are what I do, I’ll leave the opinion to you the reader.
The question in the headline might draw a multitude of answers, and possibly some less than savoury language, but I’m talking in terms of points. You know, wins, draws and losses. Just the facts ma’am.
Gerard Houllier took a bigger gamble than he probably realised when he picked the team he did at Eastlands and it’s fair to say that it backfired every bit as badly as Martin O’Neill’s team selection for Moscow. Probably more so.
The cost of failing to pick up a single point in the last two league games to Aston Villa Football Club is obvious (it can be seen in the table if you’re uncertain), but the cost to Houllier’s personal record is also significant.
I compiled the records over the first 25 top flight league games for Aston Villa managers taking over the reigns with the club in the top tier since World War II and Houllier is in the relegation zone, as you might expect. But like the current Premier League table, consider what a difference just two points in the last two games would have made to this table:
First 25 league games at Aston Villa in the top flight
| Manager | Division | Season | Points | % Avbl Pts |
| John Gregory | Premier League | 1998/99 | 56 | 74.67% |
| Tony Barton | Div One (Old) | 1982/83 | 41 | 54.67% |
| Alex Massie | Div One (Old) | 1946/47 | 38 | 50.67% |
| Ron Atkinson | Div One (Old) | 1991/92 | 37 | 49.33% |
| David O’Leary | Premier League | 2003/04 | 36 | 48.00% |
| George Martin | Div One (Old) | 1951/52 | 34 | 45.33% |
| Graham Turner | Div One (Old) | 1984/85 | 34 | 45.33% |
| Brian Little | Premier League | 1994/95 | 31 | 41.33% |
| Eric Houghton | Div One (Old) | 1953/54 | 29 | 38.67% |
| Martin O’Neill | Premier League | 2006/07 | 29 | 38.67% |
| Jozef Venglos | Div One (Old) | 1990/91 | 28 | 37.33% |
| Dick Taylor | Div One (Old) | 1964/65 | 26 | 34.67% |
| Gerard Houllier | Premier League | 2010/11 | 26 | 34.67% |
| Graham Taylor | Premier League | 2002/03 | 25 | 33.33% |
| Billy McNeill | Div One (Old) | 1986/87 | 24 | 32.00% |
That’s right, he could have been up there with Dr. Jo! Three points and he’d have tied with Martin O’Neill.
Yes, that’s all it is, three points. Here’s how the two records from their respective first 25 league games stack up in a little more detail:
| W | D | L | GF | GA | GD | Pts | |
| Martin O’Neill | 6 | 11 | 8 | 27 | 31 | -4 | 29 |
| Gerard Houllier | 6 | 8 | 11 | 31 | 42 | -11 | 26 |
Not that simple
Now, of course, there are a host of mitigating factors in both cases, I doubt fans would be unfurling protest banners if it were really as simple as 26 points vs 29 points. Still, you could fill the comments section below with hundreds of factors each manager had going for and against them during this period analysed, but the fact remains that the difference in record comes down to three losses instead of three draws.
Even more startling, at the 23 game mark, both managers had amassed 26 points. MON’s side won game 24, a 2-0 home win against Watford, the first win in a dozen games at the time, and it took an 86th minute own goal from Gavin Mahon and an injury time goal from Gabby to grab the points from an otherwise even encounter.
Incidentally, Watford were at the foot of the table with 12 points prior to kick off. We were in 15th. MON’s team weren’t as fortunate in game 25, losing 3-1 at St James’ Park.
The graph below shows how MON opened his account with a nine game unbeaten run, but stalled after a poor run of form. From game 14 to 23 Houllier closed the gap from a 10 point deficit to nothing, but blew it with the last two games.
Martin O’Neill vs Gerard Houllier: Cumulative points during first 25 league games
A particularly crucial difference is that MON’s 25th game was also the 25th game of the season and he was still riding reasonably high on goodwill alone. We were 14th after those 25 games, as we are today, but we were nine points clear of West Ham in 18th and there wasn’t any real danger of being sucked into the mire. (West Ham were not relegated that season by the way).
Houllier’s 25th game was our 30th of the season, his arrival wasn’t met with anything like the same acclaim as O’Neill, he’s come to a club with higher expectations than the one MON inherited and he hasn’t helped himself by compounding poor results with bizarre PR gaffes.
Time is running out in a ridiculously tight bottom half of the table where just six points separate 11th from bottom. There is absolutely no margin for error now.
And therein lies the fear factor that makes people panicky. Eight games remain, I’ll repeat the point I’ve made several times of trying to avoid including the final two games against Arsenal and Liverpool, meaning we’ve really got to grab 10 points from the next six games. Based on the performance over the last 25 games, certainly the last two, it’s looking increasingly unlikely.
However, that’s based on chasing a theoretical threshold of safety. It may take more than 43 points, it may take less, all that matters is not being among the three worst performers after 38 games.
Something has to change, improvements have to be found. Many fans think that change and improvement has to mean the manager. Many others feel it’s a bigger gamble to jettison the incumbent than it is to stay the course.
I can’t tell you the answer, the future cannot be known for sure, but if they play the way they did against Bolton, they’ll win more than they lose. If they play the way they did against Wolves, we’re in big, big trouble.
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56 Comments to “What’s the difference between Houllier’s and O’Neill’s first 25 league games?”
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good stats Dan but I question the position they started from and quality of teams. MON of course took over a team who the previous season just avoided the drop
GH took over at a difficult time but took over a 6th place side, one that started the season Okish with the obvious game of Newky just gone but also 2 wins
what I would like to see in these games is how many points we saw dropped from winning positions and how many poitns gained from losing positions
as i said, there’s almost no limit to the list of mitigating factors you might choose to credit or debit each manager with.
i’ll leave that to the reader, the bottom line is that the difference in record is only three points. that surprised me when i discovered it and i’m sharing it for perspective.
i forgot to add a link to the table i compiled last summer which shows MON’s final record over 152 games in the top flight in context with his post-war predecessors.
http://astonvillacentral.com/2010/08/post-war-top-flight-league-performance-by-manager/
he went from winning 39% of available points after 25 games to 52% from 152.
what changed for MON was the impact of the two big winter signings started to come through
step forward Bent and Makoun now your time to do the same
Interesting stats, what is it they say though, Lies, damned lies, and statistics!
oh good, the disraeli quote. that negates everything written!
A better comparison might be made between MON’s last 25 games and GH’s first 25.
with over three years, 127 leagues games and tens of millions spent building his team in his image? not sure about that one, nan.
I have to agree the starting positions and squad ability are massively different, at least on paper.
And don’t forget (yes it always comes back to results with me
)
those two losses should have been 2 of our bankers.
If we can’t win these games, it’s hard to see how we can win against better sides, regardless of how we play (although I do know what you mean).
After all, some on certain blogs have been telling us our so called “better football” has to lead to better results.
Not if the team doesn’t believe in the manager, it doesn’t.
I think that theory has been totally disproved fwiw.
And we are in big, big trouble.
remember Badger the endless debates we had about the so called easy run of games that would save us and you remeber the talk of Europe as well ?
the problem is the games were never easy because the teams needed the points as much as we did and it showed. I almost think we need 11 points from the next 6 as we can not rely on any from the last two
4 wins in 6 is a massive task
Well, talk of Europe has always seemed strange for me this season.
But you can’t blame fans for hoping, I suppose.
Indeed it can happen.
Look at Pool for instance
I’d give you massive odds on us getting 4 wins in our next 8 games, let alone the next six though
well the Plop example shows how changing managers works
Newky under shrearer the hero shows it does not, total gamble but is it one we can not afford to take ?
Reluctantly, I have to say no.
It’s too late and any manager that came in would be cutting his own throat if we were to go down.
That said, I’d take Coyle or Moyes if it was on the understanding that they’d rebuild us.
The thought of relegation appalls me.
All the top players leave for pennies and the rest on massive wages will still have to be paid.
I still can’t believe it’s come to this
you do not bring in perm manager, a temp one with the express condition for £2m they keep us up
a Fat sam
a El tel
a Steve McClaren
even a BFR
What a load of irrelevant tripe. O’Neill inherited a squad that had just avoided relegation. Houllier inherited a squad that up until the 37th game of last season was in with a chance of 4th and finished 6th. Your comparing chalk and cheese.
That’s harsh Mark.
Dan throws the stats up (and he’s very good at it, if you look).
He also qualifies things by saying you can look at many things for this particular comparison.
it’s worth considering that the squad that finished 6th last year was so threadbare when houllier first got his hands on it we had to include the captain of the youth side just to fill the bench a couple of time.
but the point you make is fair, if expressed a little harshly.
what MON did Dan, whether right or wrong was train the squad so injuries were never a major issue, because the small numbered squad was never put under stress. The amounts of pulls and strains under Houllier has to partyl laid at the training methods.
It was what the whole Dunne aggro was over
Shame that this wasn’t compiled after 14 games. MON = 23 points GH = 13 points. Not to mention the 11 goals + conceded overall in GH’s first 15 reign.
The decider is obviously a team that is WITHOUT A DOUBT capable of finishing 6th, now lies 3 points off the bottom of the table.
You can say that they’re close but I can’t see any categories that GH wins in, (however anyone uses the stats.)
It nearly was.
Well, GH’s record after 14 games at least;
http://astonvillacentral.com/2010/12/the-r-word-a-study-part-ii-gerard-houllier-vs-dr-jo/
i’d forgotten about that one.
so, after 14 games GH was 1 point worse than Dr Jo, after 25 it’s 2 points.
really not a good endorsement. these past two games have been an absolute disaster for him.
Ian,
Fat Sam is the only one that would appeal for me.
At least he’d play our only LB in his proper position.
*shudder*
Hah
Don’t get me wrong Dan, I don’t want that either.
He can get results though and if it’s a case of win ugly to keep us up, I’d take it.
Regardless, we’re stuck with GH sadly
either way, whoever is on the sidelines now, it’s down to the players on the pitch. they’re picking up seven figure salaries, one way or another from our pockets, and as my new friend reminds us above, most of them were involved in a deep run for 4th last season.
I would be interested to see a comparison with Alex Ferguson’s disastrous first season at Man Utd when one game saved him from the boot. This would tell a story knowing the success Alex has had after a disastrous start.
i started researching and writing a piece based on that back when MON was still in charge. 3rd season i think. didn’t finish it.
their banner read “Three years of excuses and it’s still crap. Ta ra Fergie!”
there’s also a story of deadly trying to bring fergie to VP too, but he didn’t fancy working for doug and went to utd instead.
the rest, as they say, is history.
What’s the point of analyzing this? The point is to ponder how Darren Bent will score you 50 goals next season – in the Championship! Muahahahahahahaahahaha!
good one, you little scamp, you.
won’t happen, but we’ll know where to come for advice of life in the lower leagues should the worst happen. which it won’t.
enjoy europe. oh.
Enjoy your visits to – erm, what are the teams playing in the Championship? – wherever it is in the lower division. Darren should love it, finally being able to try scoring 50 a season. Muahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Stats to back up or degrade any manager over any period in charge is kind of pointless.
Would you agree that when Villa appoint a manager that the fans get behind that said manager is given a time and backing?
Would you also agree that GH reign has not been accepted by the masses from the very beginning and that is why his head is being called for? (regardless of results, points and league position.)
this wasn’t intended to make any particular point, bob, you know me well enough to know that i do the research and i share. stats are what i do, i’m not about to hide numbers i don’t like, or cherry pick ones i do. never will.
however, if there’s something to take away from this snapshot it’s exactly as you say. this manager has been fighting against a growing army of opposition from the outset.
he hasn’t helped himself with a series of unfortunate PR gaffes and results have been below expectation, but each one has been seized upon and magnified by people who just don’t like him and never will.
as samuel l jackson said in pulp fiction: “personality goes a long way”
stats mean shit
what matters in the end is where we are come may.
unfortunately we have to get though march and april to get to may. with the growing hysteria and panic, we’re almost guaranteed to cannibalise ourselves.
claims that houllier has a worse record than billy mcneill probably don’t help. he’s still got a crap record, don’t get me wrong, but it isn’t worse than the manager who guided us to relegation.
stats do matter.
Me thinks the Macam is a wee bit bitter. As poor as we were on Saturday He knows deep down we are a club with ambition and Darren saw that as well. They say every dog has his day and this season is Sunderlands as they may finish above a few big clubs albeit in mid table mediocrity. Well done them. But for all their banter they know they will always live in the shadow of the toon army. Mr Bent loved Sunderland that much he lived near my parents in Newcastle. UTV
Notsosilentbob
I agree, however not all fans are as fickle and some who manage men on a daily basis can empathise with Houlliers problems. That’s not to say he hasn’t fanned the fire a little himself but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I supported MON till he left even though I had to pay and watch awful football at home. I balanced this with my awaydays. I think Harry Redknapp hit the nail on the head on goals on Sunday. If you trust Harry’s judgement and I do he commented that Houllier undoubtedly knows what he’s doing as his trophy cabinet attests and no matter who had been substituted he would have got it in the neck. Personally I would play Gabby or Heskey behind bent as Ash hasn’t shown any real form for 2 seasons now. When Van der Vaart is poor Harry subs him and Young isn’t in the same league as him. But I don’t have the inside picture so I have to trust his decision. Let’s be honest though under MON even if the game was crying out for a sub he would wait until the last 5 or 10 mins if at all. So all I’m trying to say is let’s suck it up bite our tongues and get behind the team and manager as our hostility can only make matters worse.
your appreciation for the fact that there’s much behind closed doors that goes into running a football club that we’re not privy to is encouraging.
judging everything through the 90 minute window of a match, augmented by tabloid scraps is akin to trying to describe the internal decor of a home by looking through the letterbox.
you might do a good job with the hallway, but good luck with the master bedroom.
If the reports in today’s papers are to be believed, Houlier has either 2 games to save his job, or, the total backing of the board, with promises to be the manager next season.
Of course this depends on which paper you read, broadsheet or tabloid. I personally believe he does have the backing and will be our manager next season, whether we like it or not.
I have stated before, I think GH is out of his depth and trading on past glories, passionless on the touchline, almost to the point of being mistaken for a kit man, hands in pockets on the corner of the bench. His man management seems to have been flawed, and whether it’s the fact that he’s French and we have predominance of British players, he just hasn’t got his point across in the dressing room.
Compare this with MON…well there is no comparison, yet fans called for his head too, they wanted a change, they got that change and still they whinge, (we’re not fickle..).
Changing anything now would be madness bordering on suicidal, someone give me some stats on a manager that has come into a club this late in the season and done a job, they would be few and far between. The only way our club will survive this season is by getting behind them, AND the manager, GH said in an after mach interview we need 11 points and we will get them.
At least give them a chance!
i’m pretty certain that he *won’t* be the manager next year if we go down.
i’m equally certain that he *will* be the manager next year if we stay up.
now, do others feel the same way and does that influence their view on whether he stays or goes right now? i would imagine it probably does in many cases, although i doubt anyone would be willing to admit it.
if the notion, as you suggest, that making a change now is suicidal is correct, advocating that change is tantamount to manslaughter.
of course, the fans advocating change see the status quo as suicidal, so their actions are righteous, they’re trying to save a life.
i don’t have the answer, i don’t know what the future holds, i lean toward change being suicidal at this stage, but i don’t begrudge anyone having their own opinion, it’s everyone’s right, but no one has the right to their own facts.
Whatever GH does between now and the end of the season, if we stay up or go down i just cannot see the man being the manager at the start of next season.
I’m neither a fan nor against him as i didnt think he was the correct man at the time to appoint but i really wanted his knowledge and experience to help the club develop from the bottom to the top.
If we do go down and the masses dont hound him out a brief setback from top flight may be what we need to restructure, with houllier having some role to play at the club(granted i hope we can stay in the top flight and achieve this).
I see the massses hounding him out and us starting all over again with a new guy, new ideas, for want of a better term another “TRANSITION” not really needed.
For me we have the playing staff, Its backroom that need juggling with Hou moving upstairs (not director of football but more a chairmans advisor maybe?)
The only thing sacking the guy will do right now and getting a new guy in is new manager syndrome, But not long term plan.
We have to ask as fans do we want a quick fix to a cancer that has been around the club really since before Mon or do we finally want to rid it and build on the potential that is there to see!
I’m totally lost here – why is it all so complicated?
MON – good
GH – bad
Simple
We may as well stick with him, mind. If he was the best we could attract when we were good, then we’re hardly likely to attract a genius now we’re heading into the Championship (or bottom half – depending on how depressed you are)
Another way to look at it would be that we were over ambitious when MON threatened success. We thought a new/better man COULD deliver. Now, maybe we’re being over ambitious expecting survival, maybe we should all just accept that we are a Championship side?
I, for one, am just tired if all the debate. We were good. Now we are not. It was fun. Now it isn’t. Nothing is going to change very quickly.
It’s OK the wife has confiscated my belt and laces.
Nanwasafan
As I alluded before I supported MON for the entire time he was with us, however with the style of football played we over achieved. If as a football fan you thought the kick and rush football was ever going to beat teams home and away consistently then you must have overlooked our mauling at Anfield and at the Bridge. Our wins if you remember were often steal a goal against the run of play and defend for the rest of the game unable to retain the ball or leave our own half. Granted we finished 6th consistently but to what end. We couldn’t play in Europe and finish 6th in the EPL consecutively as you can’t chase the ball for 90 mins each game for the whole season in all competitions or you will fade. Sound familiar.
So MON – Good
I beg to differ.
He was the best manager we could hope for in 2006 but that was it.
He had taken us as far as he could but he didn’t go graciously.
The timing of his departure is partly to blame for our predicament.
His pre madonna culture with those in favour with him always playing (remember poor Luke Young and Reo’s treatment) is partly to blame for our predicament.
His recruitment policy of only buying over priced British players no overseas players also plays a part.
So in addressing some of these problems GH is experiencing difficulty does that make him a bad manager. Only time will tell.
As Matt Kendrick said in a recent interview MON was a ****ing nightmare to deal with GH is a gentleman.
So in reply
MON – average
GH – jury is still out
My hope is we all back the team, back the manager and let’s pull through together.
The reality is we bay for blood, the players get edgy and we go down with the scum.
“He had taken us as far as he could…”
Sorry for being thick, but I read this all the time and never understood it. Who’s to say he had taken us as far as he could, when the numbers suggest otherwise.
2007—>50 points
2008—>60
2009—>62
2010—>64
So in conclusion,
MON–very good
GH — jury is still out, but so far, he’s been doing worse than Billy McNeill.
“back the manager”
No chance.
and I think the majority think the same.
He’s blown it Aaron.
He gaffed at Pool, PR-wise and didn’t learn his lesson.
He’s played players stupidly out of position when we have players who specialise in those positions, but stubbornly refuses to play them (something that MON was massively criticised for btw).
He’s alienated half the team, when none of those involved caused any trouble before (this imo, is totally deliberate).
I’d give you Carew perhaps, but you’d think NRC would be on GH’s side and he’s even managed to p*ss him off!
And most of all, he said we couldn’t compete with Man City, a team who were described in today’s Mirror as basically rubbish and have been for weeks.
“Granted we finished 6th consistently but to what end.”
I’d rather that than see us relegated anyday.
As a manager, you stand or fall by your decisions.
And I totally fail to see where GH has got one single thing right.
He’s quite simply tried to change too much, too fast.
Worst of all, he’s demonstrated that his views are set in stone and he won’t adapt, even though it’s blatantly obvious we’re in the brown stuff (something else MON was criticised for, although the brown stuff never happened under him).
Survive or not (and I think we have no chance myself), I for one, want him gone.
At the end of the season, not now.
Panos as you rightly point out our points increased each season.
Could you remind as I’m obviously missing the point
Did the finishing position change.
Or did the propensity to fade from the end of January onwards change.
MON’s judgement was compromised for me whilst watching him as a pundit with Marcel Desailly.
Marcel dared to offer a different opinion to MON during half time of a particular game.
MON was so incensed at this absolute outrage that he asked Marcel to quantify his opinion. Desailly duly did. MONs response was to ask him what do you know about football.
Surely I thought as a World Cup medal winner. Double Champions League medal winner and to be honest the list is endless he probably has every bit as good an understanding as you MON if not more so.
That was one of MONs weakness’s see. How dare you disagree. My way or the highway hence he walked on us.
My simple opinion is the hype surrounding MON is greater than the effect, He is the press darling. If you buy into it fair enough but then again you probably buy all the hype about Ashley Young being the best thing since sliced bread.
My opinion
MON – Average
Give a manager £100 – £150 million and he can build a squad to reach 6th
Who do I rate? now that’s a question. It depends on the circumstance.
Roy Hodgson was good at Fulham and is at WBA but once at Liverpool he suddenly became poor (I think not.)
David Moyes is fantastic at Everton but can he work with available cash I honestly don’t know.
For me there are so many examples of top proven managers going to a club and the conditions aren’t right on arrival so they are sacked quickly only to prove themselves at another club.
In football as in life nothing is simple.
I find it quite simply astounding that people are still (with the stench of Badger’s brown stuff all about us) flagging off MON.
Football is a competitive game. Not an art form. You are good if you win. You are crap if you lose.
Are Arsenal better than United?
Badger
I accept your arguments they are all valid
The points are facts.
But it reminds me of a previous manager in the same situation.
He inherited a squad with problems and a serious drink and discipline problem. The players turned on him as they didn’t like his training regime or his football philosophy.
For three seasons he struggled with the team shifting the trouble makers out. The same team who loved the previous manager and achieved for the previous manager.
From the beginning the fans were on his back. Culminating in the third season with chants you don’t know what your doing. Banners calling for his dismissal. They finished 14th that season.
Big Ron was the previous manager and Paul McGrath one of his problem children.
Yes it was Fergie at Man Utd.
I’m not convinced this is the case with GH but who knows what the future holds.
As a Warrant Officer in the Army I have trained teams for 18 years and led them to Bosnia, Iraq and Afghan several times. Always there have been old and bolds who fight any change, young lads who hate training but once in theatre and it comes together. Who knows that time might be next season for GH if and I say if we stay up.
I’m playing devils advocate here as I’m bored with the one sided bashing but none of us know what is happening behind the scenes and therefore I definitely am not in a place to pass judgement without full access to the facts not press tittle tattle.
As for awkward players if the problems are due to their egos then as a manager his back is against the wall as he cannot let them rule the dressing room.
On a different point. I see Stephen Ireland is playing up at Newcastle as well. He went on a John Carew the night before a game. How many chances does that boy need. With one pre madonna in Balotelli no wonder Man city wanted him gone. Lol
No Arsenal aren’t.
Are Barcelona better than Man Utd.
Now there’s a team who play the beautiful game.
Aaron you’re right mate, the finishing position did not change, but if you keep getting more points than the previous year, sooner or later you are going to win the league. O’Neill did that, and we kept improving on points, year after year.
He is not perfect, and he made some bad decisions too, but overall I think he did a very good job for us. My point is, it was working all right for us…we did not have to get greedy and change it.
UTV
P.S
A.Young is definitely not the best thing since sliced bread, but still the best player we have at the moment.
I would of been happy if he was still manager and never agreed with us pushing him, but he walked on us and I think it was down to wage bills of his own making. To continue down that road might of been suicide of the Portsmouth and Leeds flavour and we had no strength in depth. That was obvious at Wembley. Chelsea bring Kalou on and we bring Heskey on.
I think football is like war fighting in it’s fluidity and you have to embrace change or you are fighting the wrong battle.
With the improvement in teams around us I honestly think we would of struggled this season to keep pace without new blood regardless, however when he walked at that point in time I always knew we would struggle and possibly be in the position we are in.
I don’t know right now what the future holds, I’m honestly at a loss to grasp the last few weeks. A friend who is a massive Southhampton fan and has been to all our home games with us this season warns me of sacking managers as 5 managers in a short period of time put the saints in league 1, top managers seem to still respect Houllier and all stuck up for him on Sunday. After the Bolton game I thought we were improving and just needed to sort man marking out for set pieces as well as to stop giving free kicks away in cheap fouls. After Saturday I honestly don’t know what to think.
The only two things I’m sure of are
1. Only Randy Lerners opinion counts
2. Come what may me and the missus will still have a season ticket next season.
On the second point I am still annoyed at all the cheap tickets this season when it costs us over a £1000 for the season. We moved from the Holte to the Trinity a few seasons ago. Together with the costs to travel up from my posting in Ipswich each week as we do home and away it would probably be cheaper to buy on a game by game basis. The only reason we won’t is we have a lot of good mates around us and it’s a good crack even with the poor results.
UTV
Just to contradict Panos it’s Downing for me. Although his poor reaction during defensive set pieces has cost us at least 2 goals I can think of this season. Makouns got an eye for a pass as well. Shame Ash struggles to hit the target these days.
lol
Wow Dan. I’m away from my computer for a day or so and all of a sudden you have 50+ comments! You’ve stirred a hornets nest now!
I can’t add anything to the discussion other than to point out that I really enjoy reading everyone’s comments. I don’t agree with some but I learn a great deal and see new perspectives. “Reasoned debate” and all that.
For me, I’m with Aaron. I can say that GH is the right person or that he will survive through to next season but I do think he is pointing us in the direction that we must go if we want to build a top-4 club.
I also agree with Badger that it was too much too fast. I asked a while back whether a complete overhaul was necessary on each changing of the guard. Whether it is or not, I think every new manager thinks he has to do it. The new gaffer has to have “his” players. GH, unfortunately, has been unable or unwilling to win with the tools at hand (hand-picked by MON). They work but you just have to know how to use them. GH decided to replace them instead of learn to make use of the quality he inherited. To make matters worse he was vocal about it. Looking back the result is unsurprising. Players feeling alienated; bust-ups with management; lack of fight; etc.
Ultimately for me it is the PR gaffes that have put the final nail in the coffin. I could put up with a manager that had a rough patch trying to re-work the team into an image with which I agreed, but Houllier seems to not have any idea of some of the statements he makes or their impact on Villa fans.
My answer to Aaron’s formula is:
MON – good (possibly very good) but had peaked with Villa. I don’t think that he would have got us past 6th place even with a signficant investment. I just believe his style of grabbing a point against the run of play and then parking the bus won’t cut it in the very top levels.
GH — the jury is out. He was put in a very tough situation (one which I won’t forgive MON for). But, all in all I don’t think he should get another chance next season. I think he has done more harm that good so far to our League Position, the team morale and the fan base. I think it best we move on.
I think that maybe relegation wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world! It would give us chance 2 detox! Get rid ov the big earners n give our highly rated youngsters a go! We could give starting roles to guzan,Clark,baker,herd,hogg,banann,albrighton,the fonz, lichaj! That’s practically a team!!! N they r gd enuf 2 get us out ov the championship plus wouldn’t it be nice 2 win a league???? Ov course I dnt want villa 2 get relegated but all I’m saying is it wouldn’t be that bad, maybe gd 4 us. Houlier out chris houghton or big Sam in!
P.s I do think that gabby,colins,downing, petrov and Darren bent would all stay if we did go down!
Drove past Ashley Young’s house on Tuesday, it’s up for sale. I know he’s split from his girlfriend and may no longer live there but…..
he moved back to hertfordshire months ago. in fact, he never actually sold his place there when he came to us in the first place.
that’s how i heard it some time ago.
you little gossip, you.